IRC log from 2008-01-15

[20:13] nobby: ann?
[20:13] ragaller: Hi, Ann+dreas
[20:13] ja2: sorry jann, but jann is alread taken as nickname 
[20:13] ragaller: ;-))
[20:13] nobby: ah
[20:13] nobby:
[20:13] ragaller: nice one, Jann!
[20:14] ja2: yeah 
[20:15] ja2 heißt jetzt jann2.
[20:16] jann2: better?
[20:16] ragaller: I prefer ja2 
[20:17] nobby: I have to prepare my dinner
[20:17] nobby: will be afk from time to time
[20:17] ragaller: OK - good cooking then and check out:
[20:18] nobby:
[20:18] nobby: 3000 $ with SSD ...
[20:18] nobby: and I have to admit I don't really like the design
[20:18] nobby: not yet, at least 
[20:18] nobby: but - they pushed the limits again
[20:19] ragaller: yeah - the design is a bit roundish - but nice, I think
[20:19] nobby: I'd have build it flat
[20:19] nobby: it looks a bit like a sony like that
[20:19] nobby: but - well
[20:20] nobby: have to see it in real life
[20:20] nobby: looks a bit like the new ipods
[20:20] jann2: roundish as the lenya tabs 
[20:22] ragaller: will shurely convince the iX gui critics of the new lenya design - one apple has set the standard!
[20:22] jann2:
[20:27] ragaller: how is the editor development progressing at the university?
[20:28] ragaller: if that's not internals....?
[20:30] nobby: AFAIK it shall be released by the end of march
[20:30] jann2: Sorry was away  ....
[20:30] nobby: there are still some issues with copy&paste
[20:31] nobby: maybe we should announce the IRC session on the users list next time
[20:31] jann2: They are still within the "Abnahmeprozess"
[20:31] jann2: but some already use the new editor for production ...
[20:32] nobby: CHF 4,248.00
[20:32] nobby: that's crazy
[20:32] jann2: what's 4248
[20:32] nobby: who's gonna buy that?
[20:32] nobby: macbook air with SSD
[20:33] nobby: you get almost 3 macbooks for that 
[20:34] ragaller: ok - sorry; I'm more familiar with german and I'm shure you'll understand me...
[20:34] Sie haben den Chat verlassen, da sie vom Server getrennt wurden.
[20:36] You rejoined the room.
[20:36] nobby_: sorry
[20:37] jann2: Das müsste man mit Thomas absprechen ....
[20:37] nobby_: my network cable got looose
[20:37] nobby hat den Chatroom verlassen. (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[20:37] Sie heißen jetzt nobby.
[20:37] jann2: jürgen, hast du interesse den editor auszuprobieren?
[20:37] ragaller: Ja, verstehe ich - drängt auch überhaupt nicht - ich denke aber, der Editor verspricht einiges für die Zukunft.
[20:38] nobby: worum ging's?
[20:38] nobby: gibt's irgendwo ein IRC-Log?
[20:38] jann2: editor
[20:38] nobby: ok
[20:38] ragaller: Bin nicht sicher bezüglich irc log - wäre natürlich ein Anlass auf Englisch zurückzuwechseln
[20:42] ragaller: Jann: ich werde den Editor ja sicher im Rahmen der lkg-zentrum Publikation kennenlernen, wenn alles ready ist.
[20:43] jann2: Wie weit seit ihr?
[20:45] ragaller: Ein Missverständnis - ich meinte, wenn ihr mit dem Einbau des Editors so weit seid, dass ihr ihn für alle uzh Publikationen anbietet - wir haben in letzter Zeit nicht ander Publikation gearbeitet
[20:45] jann2: ah ok
[20:46] ragaller: Andreas, welches sind die anstehenden Arbeiten / Schwierigkeiten bezüglich der neuen Doku-Publikation?
[20:47] nobby: 1. does everybody agree that we want to migrate the docs to Lenya?
[20:47] nobby: 2. how shall we manage the content?
[20:48] nobby: svn - yes or no
[20:48] nobby: backups
[20:48] nobby: versioning only in svn, or also in Lenya
[20:48] nobby: it's a pity that thorsten is not here
[20:48] nobby: joern wanted to join too
[20:50] nobby: another open issue: access control
[20:50] nobby: if we allow public access, we need notification
[20:51] nobby: if we don't use SVN for the content, we need notification too
[20:51] nobby: IMO we shouldn't allow public access
[20:52] nobby: shall we run the docs publication on the zones, or locally?
[20:52] ragaller: looking at the a bit caotic situation on the zones server, public access is not a healthy thing.
[20:52] nobby: if we run on the zones, it's difficult to commit the content to SVN
[20:52] nobby: option a: each committer has a sandbox on the zones, copies the content there after editing and commits it
[20:53] nobby: option b: each committer runs the docu pub locally and commits the content there
[20:53] nobby: option c: we don't use svn for the content
[20:53] nobby: IMO b is the most appealing at the moment
[20:53] nobby: WDYT?
[20:53] jann2: why not using and make a nightly update on the zones?
[20:54] nobby: ??
[20:54] nobby: updating is not the problem
[20:54] nobby: committing is difficult
[20:54] jann2: ok, understand ...
[20:56] nobby: uh, burnt onions
[20:56] nobby: rescued them in the last second 
[20:56] jann2:
[20:56] ragaller: ui - sorry to hear that
[20:56] jann2: just raw onions?
[20:56] nobby: no, burnt ones 
[20:56] nobby: my favourite meal
[20:57] ragaller: anything with it?
[20:57] nobby: yes 
[20:57] ragaller: like pasta or so?
[20:57] nobby: red thai curry
[20:57] nobby: but pasta with onions is also very good
[20:57] nobby: onions and cream
[20:57] ragaller: wow - I'm getting hungry again... I wish you en Guete!
[20:57] nobby: thanks 
[20:58] nobby: will be another 30 minutes till the eggplant is ready
[20:58] nobby: a good curry needs patience
[20:58] ragaller: You seem to be a gourmet...
[21:00] nobby: yes, gourmet and gourmand
[21:00] nobby: do you have any preferences (a, b, or c)?
[21:00] nobby: or maybe there are better options?
[21:00] nobby: assuming that you want to migrate to Lenya
[21:01] nobby: IMO it would be a nice advertisement
[21:01] ragaller: definitely move to lenya!
[21:01] nobby: and the publication could be useful for other projects
[21:01] nobby: I like the generation of the changes page 
[21:02] nobby: does anyone have the cell number of joern?
[21:02] nobby: maybe we should send him an SMS
[21:02] jann2: no i haven't
[21:03] nobby: thorsten is online in skype
[21:03] ragaller: sorry, no - only his fixnet and email
[21:03] nobby: I pinged hiim
[21:03] ragaller: great
[21:04] ragaller: Is svn for the content "only" for backup purposes?
[21:06] nobby: and versioning
[21:06] nobby: unless Lenya, it provides unlimited versions
[21:07] nobby: and we can easily migrate to a newer version
[21:07] nobby: well, we'd have to migrate to a new Lenya version anyway
[21:07] nobby: so this point is not important
[21:08] nobby: another advantage of local installations is that you can work offline
[21:08] nobby: committing from the Lenya GUI would be great, of course
[21:08] ragaller: yeah but you loose locking...
[21:08] nobby: maybe we can trigger the SVN commit script
[21:08] nobby: yes
[21:09] nobby: do we need locking?
[21:09] ragaller: and the testing provided by collaborative working of committers would also be lost
[21:09] nobby: OK
[21:09] nobby: good point
[21:10] nobby: the zones would be a better real-world testing szenario
[21:11] rfrovarp hat den Chatroom betreten.
[21:11] ragaller: I have a tendency towards c - but I don't fully understand the scenario yet. How is the content moved over to
[21:11] ragaller: Hi Richard! Nice to have you here.
[21:11] nobby: wget + manual commit + update on minotaur
[21:12] nobby: like it is now, but I'd prefer wget to the Cocoon CLI for reasons of simplicity
[21:12] nobby: but I don't really care
[21:12] nobby: Cocoon CLI is also fine if someone volunteers to set it up
[21:12] nobby: hi Richard!
[21:12] rfrovarp: Hi everybody.
[21:13] nobby: nobby: if we run on the zones, it's difficult to commit the content to SVN
[21:13] nobby: [20:52] nobby: option a: each committer has a sandbox on the zones, copies the content there after editing and commits it
[21:13] nobby: [20:53] nobby: option b: each committer runs the docu pub locally and commits the content there
[21:13] nobby: [20:53] nobby: option c: we don't use svn for the content
[21:13] nobby: we talk about managing the docs with Lenya
[21:13] rfrovarp: Thanks.
[21:14] nobby: we seem to tend towards c
[21:15] nobby: because it would provide the most realistic test scenario for Lenya
[21:15] nobby: I'd use a for backup
[21:16] rfrovarp: yeah I would seem to agree
[21:16] ragaller: I consider the svn-versioning not so important (who ever checked out an older version of the documentation?)
[21:17] rfrovarp: well, there is a certain amount of protection there against damage
[21:19] ragaller: I don't get a) yet - how can the user of the docu publication access the content (via ssl / sftp on the zones server) before copying it?
[21:20] ragaller: should have had a "?" after server
[21:20] nobby: login with ssh
[21:20] nobby: and commit there
[21:20] nobby: or scp the content to your local machine
[21:21] ragaller: ok - got it
[21:23] rfrovarp: having to connect out to zones seems like extra unneeded work.
[21:23] nobby: you'd only have to do it once in a while
[21:23] nobby: the problem is that the committer is not the author
[21:23] nobby: can we live with that?
[21:23] nobby: that would be the advantage of option b
[21:24] rfrovarp: yeah, that's why I think b is better than a
[21:24] ragaller: the author would still be in the documents metadata?
[21:25] nobby: hmm, isn't there a way to get both advantages?
[21:31] nobby: maybe we could automatically copy the content to the editor's sandbox after each change
[21:31] jann2: sorry i was away and lost the thread ... but why couldn't we work without svn on the zones server (c) -> have a script which performs a svn ci from time to time
[21:31] nobby: yes, I also have such a script
[21:31] nobby: the problem is that the committer is not the author
[21:33] ragaller: How are the access rights to the docu given to the committers - manualy by the first admin?
[21:34] nobby: we'd have to copy the content automatically to the editor's sandbox and trigger the commit there automatically
[21:34] nobby: that might work
[21:34] nobby: ragaller - that can be done in SVN
[21:34] nobby: we could disable the access control usecases entirely
[21:35] jann2: Shouldn't we use lenya's access control -> eat your own dogfoot!
[21:35] nobby: yes
[21:35] tscherle2 hat den Chatroom betreten.
[21:35] nobby: so you mean we shouldn't disable the usecases to get a real security test?
[21:35] nobby: makes sense
[21:36] tscherle2: hi all
[21:36] jann2: yes
[21:36] ragaller: Hello Thorsten!
[21:36] nobby: hi Thorsten
[21:37] nobby: we need your opinion
[21:37] tscherle2: tell me
[21:37] tscherle2: btw is there a protocol?
[21:37] nobby: nobby: if we run on the zones, it's difficult to commit the content to SVN
[21:37] nobby: [20:52] nobby: option a: each committer has a sandbox on the zones, copies the content there after editing and commits it
[21:37] nobby: [20:53] nobby: option b: each committer runs the docu pub locally and commits the content there
[21:37] nobby: [20:53] nobby: option c: we don't use svn for the content
[21:37] nobby: [20:53]
[21:37] tscherle2: well c is not an option
[21:38] tscherle2: since it would violate ASF policy
[21:38] tscherle2: we need to keep our docu in our svn
[21:39] jann2: ok but we could use c and have a script which commits changes from time to time
[21:39] nobby: if we commit on the zones, it's hard to have the author as committer
[21:39] nobby: nobby: we'd have to copy the content automatically to the editor's sandbox and trigger the commit there automatically
[21:39] nobby: [21:34]
[21:40] tscherle2: we cannot commit from zones
[21:40] tscherle2: but we can export stuff
[21:40] tscherle2: and commit it from our local box
[21:41] jann2: Would that correspond to option b?
[21:41] tscherle2: yeah where the content is coming from zones
[21:42] nobby: is it an ASF policy that we can't commit from the zones?
[21:42] tscherle2: meaning one would scp
[21:42] tscherle2: jupp
[21:42] nobby: OK
[21:42] nobby: another option: provide a usecase to download the content via HTTP
[21:43] ragaller: nobby: that could be a nice thing to have anyway
[21:43] nobby: like "Synchronize local Lenya with remote Lenya"
[21:43] nobby: Guice 
[21:44] ragaller: ?
[21:45] nobby: Google Guice
[21:46] nobby: afaik it can synchronize local apps with online repositories
[21:46] nobby: that would be a nice marketing argument
[21:47] nobby: but it will be quite hard to implement
[21:47] nobby: because it would have to work in both directions
[21:49] ragaller: Could it be setup in 2 steps, scp to local box and svn commit first and more sofisticated stuff second?
[21:49] tscherle2: even without guice it is not that trivial
[21:49] tscherle2: yeah
[21:49] nobby: sure
[21:49] tscherle2: there is as well always rsync
[21:50] nobby: another option: host the docu publication on a different server
[21:50] nobby: where we can commit
[21:50] nobby: tcherle2, do you know why we may not commit from the zones server?
[21:50] tscherle2: but it would need to be an account installed on the server
[21:51] nobby: yes
[21:51] tscherle2: we cannot have generic accounts
[21:51] nobby: no, each committer would have a sandbox
[21:51] tscherle2: that means storing passwords on the zones server
[21:52] nobby: or passing them from the Lenya GUI to the automatic commit script
[21:52] nobby: with SSL of course
[21:52] tscherle2: the commit scripts need an user
[21:52] nobby: SVN username and password would be passed from the Lenya application
[21:53] nobby: but I don't have a very good feeling either
[21:53] tscherle2: but we may ask on infrastructure whether we could do it
[21:53] nobby: I'd prefer a nice way to get the content to my local sandbox and commit there
[21:54] nobby: yes, that doesn't do any harm
[21:54] tscherle2: yeah
[21:54] nobby: what do the others think?
[21:54] nobby: it's quite silent here 
[21:54] tscherle2: better safe then sorry
[21:54] nobby: yes
[21:55] rfrovarp: it could work.
[21:55] nobby: but with concurrent editing, the problem is again that the author is always the committer
[21:55] jann2: I would also prefer to edit the content on my local machine. Up to now that seems to be the best solution to me
[21:56] rfrovarp: I don't seen an issue with editing on local. I'm setup to do that now.
[21:56] nobby: no, there are no issues
[21:56] nobby: the only drawback is that we don't have a concurrent editing test scenario
[21:56] nobby: and editing collaboratively on the zones might be nice marketing
[21:56] jann2: yes that's pity ...
[21:57] jann2: we should eat as much of our own dogfoot as possible 
[21:58] nobby: I could live with the drawback that the editor is not the committer
[21:59] ragaller: me too
[21:59] rfrovarp: yep
[21:59] nobby: we already have this situation when we migrate content from the Wiki to the Docs
[22:00] nobby: IMO we could edit on the zones and once in a while someone scp's the content and commits it
[22:00] tscherle2: jupp
[22:00] tscherle2: the only thing is syncing
[22:00] ragaller: jop
[22:00] tscherle2: backwards
[22:01] tscherle2: to the zones server
[22:01] nobby: we'll, it would be discouraged to edit locally
[22:01] nobby: but it would be no problem to update the zones server
[22:01] nobby: I don't expect complex conflicts
[22:02] nobby: apart from backup files, but I'd set the revision history length to 0 anyway
[22:03] nobby: not nice, but IMO better than having 20 backup files for each content file in SVN
[22:03] nobby: and not only these 20, but all that ever existed
[22:03] nobby: because each one has a new name (timestamp)
[22:04] nobby: wdyt?
[22:05] nobby: could you live without a revision history in Lenya?
[22:06] rfrovarp: depends on what rollingback from svn would take.
[22:06] jann2: yes, we have a history in the svn.
[22:06] nobby: rfrovarp - you'd have to log in at the zones server and to the svn rollback manually
[22:07] nobby: or do it locally and paste the old content in the source editor
[22:07] rfrovarp: yeah, I suppose the pasting of old content would work.
[22:07] rfrovarp: or the manual rollback.
[22:07] nobby: at least for simple operations
[22:08] nobby: it's a bit more difficult for sitetree changes
[22:08] rfrovarp: yeah, that would require bouncing lenya, right?
[22:08] nobby: but that wouldn't be solved by the Lenya revision history either
[22:08] nobby: yes
[22:09] nobby: the UUIDs make it easier, though
[22:09] nobby: you don't have to touch the content files if you change the sitetree
[22:09] nobby: otherwise manual sitetree editing would be a nightmare with the content in SVN
[22:09] ragaller: Sorry guys I have to leave - good night everyone!
[22:10] nobby: good night, thanks for participating!
[22:10] jann2: bye jürgen
[22:10] rfrovarp: good night!
[22:10] nobby: hmm, I wonder what happened to Jörn
[22:10] ragaller hat den Chatroom verlassen. ("ChatZilla 0.9.80 [Firefox]")
[22:11] nobby: he's not a Mac user, so it can't be a breakdown because of the Macbook Air
[22:12] nobby: so, do we have a consensus?
[22:13] nobby: how shall we proceed?
[22:13] nobby: I'd suggest that I post a summary to lenya-dev
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